Wednesday, April 27, 2011
After yesterday’s activities, I was moving rather slowly this morning. My plan was to be out and about by noon and I made that goal. I wanted a little kick start so my first stop was Starbuck’s for a Latte and muffin… the breakfast of champions!
As I was leaving the Pavilion, Val and Mark were coming in to have breakfast. A short chat and I continued to the Convention Center to catch the bus. These are double decker buses… a great way to see the city and get from area to area for a minimum cost… only 38 RM (Ringgits). You get on where you want to and get off where you want to on a 24 hour ticket. Really makes it easy to see and do.
The towers in the background are around the corner from our hotel. They are called the Petronas Twin Tower. I believe their claim to fame… the tallest towers in the world.
Michael and I would be doing this city tour on Saturday afternoon once we complete our morning at the Batu Caves. So today I would check out the places and decide which ones are worth it for him. I thought my first stop would be Brickfield, better known as Little India. It would be stop 11A.
At about stop 9, a young couple boarded and she sat down beside me. Her name is Hanne, from Norway, and his is Beau, from South Africa. As it turns out, she is headed for Shanghai and he will be teaching at an international school in the south, just north of Hong Kong. We chatted on the bus and all got off at Little India. We decided to stick together and look around. This area was quite colorful. It was basically one street… not exactly what I was expecting. We visited a couple of stores, but nothing I really wanted to buy. It was rather disappointing from a ‘wow’ factor.
We saw a church called Church of Our Lady of Fatima. It reminded me of a very old movie about the same subject and curiosity took us across the street to take a peek. It was named because the Lady of Fatima, however the actual event occurred in Portugal. That part I had forgotten. But the church was very nice.
Although the area in general was not what I had expectedr… there was one store that we were in that had lots of bling… but it was way too much even for my girls… and they like their bling jewelry. It also had incense and other prayer ritual things. In the middle of this kind of stuff was… cow urine in a bottle. I cannot even begin to imagine what one might use cow urine for. It was right there next to the compressed camphor nuggets. Hanne and Beau, in the photo, are displaying our find!
We found a little fruit stand where we bought a few fresh bananas. I had not had lunch so the bananas were a welcome snack. Then to the little store across the street for an icy cold bottle of water… the lunch of champions!! We munched on our snack and waited for the bus.
We decided stop # 14 would be our next hop-off. We would be exploring the park and lake garden. As an added bonus was an orchid garden!! The Orchid Garden was the highlight of the stop. It was lush and gorgeous. Could not resist a few pictures here, it was made for picture taking. The water features and the flowers were so nice to see in the middle of the city. It was a respite from the hustle and bustle.
I had pretty much decided to just ride the bus around and back to the convention center. It takes 2 ½ hours for the bus to make the round through 22 stops. So when I boarded at the gardens I figured that would be it. Beau and Hanne were going to the Pavilion to shop, so we agreed to go there and have something cold to drink. After that they would shop and I would go to the hotel.
Well… at stop # 15, the National Mosque, we, at the very last minute, decided to hop off and see it. I have always believed that things happen for a reason… and boy this was definitely one of those times where there was clearly divine intervention. The mosque would not be open to tourists until 3pm. We had to wait about 15 minutes.
Across the street was a most unusual building. We assumed it was another mosque, but later we learned it is the railway station. When Michael and I are doing this tour on Saturday I want to visit it to see the inside.
Below is a view of the outside of the mosque. Just to the left is where we will enter to go to the prayer place.
They provide robes for visitors not dressed appropriately and you must take off your shoes. I must say… Hanne looked quite fashionable in her purple robe!!
We entered the mosque and made our way to the main prayer auditorium. Waiting there were greeters… there to tell you about the structure as well as the religion. Everything in the mosque is there for a reason. The mosque must face ‘mecca’ which is a site in Egypt. There is writing in the glass that is symbolic for Muslim interpretations.
As I listened to him speak about the religion, I began to remember passages I had read recently from Exodus and Leviticus. They have all these rituals that must be done before they can pray, which, by the way, I learned is five times a day. It was interesting to hear about how the architect chose the various features of the building.
However I struggled with some of the religious aspects of what he said. He implied that a number of Christian beliefs will land us in Hell. They believe that Allah is the One and only, independent of all things, has no child or parents and because of our belief in Jesus Christ that we are worshiping multiple Gods. Muslim does not recognize Jesus as the Son of God. Just one of many variations in their beliefs.
After the man completed his commentary, Hanne and I were looking at some of the pamphlets describing the various aspects of their religion. We were speaking quietly about our disagreement regarding some of the things he said. As we spoke a young Muslim man was moving ever closer to us, until he joined our conversation.
While we were talking to this Muslim man, Beau was having a separate conversation about the same thing with the man giving our overview and commentary originally.
Our man was prepared with a spiral book loaded with contradicting scriptures meant to prove the Muslim way of thinking. I had always thought I was not as knowledgeable about the Bible as I wanted and needed to be, but I surprised myself when I was able to speak to this person with confidence and quotes from the scripture to provide scriptural rebuttal to his arguments.
They believe that Christians have more than one God, that Jesus is nothing more than a prophet and that he was never crucified or resurrected. These are just a few of differences, but the most significantly inaccurate
.
Beau made a good point in that if one does not believe the accounts of the Bible about Christ being the Son of God, sent here to spread the Word, then die for our sins on the cross and to rise from the dead to walk among us for 3 days… read the Roman history books that document these events. The Romans have no vested interest in promoting Christianity, yet it is documented by the Roman historians.
He challenged them to seek the truth. It is truth that is not only documented in the Bible, but truth that has been substantiated by archeology and other historical document finds. But these scriptures were blatantly missing from his argument, scriptures that he could not refute.
John 3:16… For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 14:6… Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
The book of Matthew documents time after time the fulfillment of the prophets from the Old Testament. It starts in the first chapter and continues through 27.
Matthew 1:22… All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel --- which means, “God with us.”
Jesus has always existed… through the Holy Trinity… The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Well said from the Internet and verified:
In history we have two reliable sources that are classical references to JESUS, independently from what the Holy Bible says.
There were in fact two historians who mention Jesus as a historical personage.
They are the Jewish historian FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS(37 AD - circa 100 AD ) and the great Roman historian Tacitus (AD 55-c.AD 117).
So, the first century Jewish historian Josephus in his Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3 says:
“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribes of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”
Also, in the book 20, 1, of the same work he mentions “Jesus, who was called Christ”.
Similarly, the Roman historian, TACITUS, wrote in 109 AD of a Christ who “suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus”.
Here is the quote from 'Annals' 15.44, where Jesus and the Christians are mentioned in an account of how the Emperor Nero persecuted the Christians in order to draw attention away from himself after Rome's fire of 64 AD:
“But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. CHRISTUS, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind“.
From this evidence it is clear that the Romans knew perfectly well Jesus has been executed by Pontius Pilate who was procurator of Judea from 26-36AD under the emperor Tiberius.
Further, a prominent historical detail in this extra-biblical source – the name of Pontius Pilate – is in full agreement with the gospel accounts.
So it seems quite improbable to argue that there was no historical Jesus; on the contrary we have solid evidence for the existence of Jesus and for historical data about Jesus' life.
In fact both Josephus and Tacitus are reliable sources so that we can conclude that there is every reason to trust Josephus and overall Tacitus as reliable. Tacitus in fact is a writer whose reliability cannot be seriously questioned.
To conclude, what we know for certain about Jesus in history is that:
1- he was a wise man
2-he was crucified by order of Pontius Pilate, Roman procurator of Judea, at the suggestion of the principal men of the Jewish Sanhedrin.
3- he appeared to his apostles alive again the third day.
4- he gave his name-Christ- to the Christians.
There were in fact two historians who mention Jesus as a historical personage.
They are the Jewish historian FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS(37 AD - circa 100 AD ) and the great Roman historian Tacitus (AD 55-c.AD 117).
So, the first century Jewish historian Josephus in his Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3 says:
“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribes of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”
Also, in the book 20, 1, of the same work he mentions “Jesus, who was called Christ”.
Similarly, the Roman historian, TACITUS, wrote in 109 AD of a Christ who “suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus”.
Here is the quote from 'Annals' 15.44, where Jesus and the Christians are mentioned in an account of how the Emperor Nero persecuted the Christians in order to draw attention away from himself after Rome's fire of 64 AD:
“But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. CHRISTUS, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind“.
From this evidence it is clear that the Romans knew perfectly well Jesus has been executed by Pontius Pilate who was procurator of Judea from 26-36AD under the emperor Tiberius.
Further, a prominent historical detail in this extra-biblical source – the name of Pontius Pilate – is in full agreement with the gospel accounts.
So it seems quite improbable to argue that there was no historical Jesus; on the contrary we have solid evidence for the existence of Jesus and for historical data about Jesus' life.
In fact both Josephus and Tacitus are reliable sources so that we can conclude that there is every reason to trust Josephus and overall Tacitus as reliable. Tacitus in fact is a writer whose reliability cannot be seriously questioned.
To conclude, what we know for certain about Jesus in history is that:
1- he was a wise man
2-he was crucified by order of Pontius Pilate, Roman procurator of Judea, at the suggestion of the principal men of the Jewish Sanhedrin.
3- he appeared to his apostles alive again the third day.
4- he gave his name-Christ- to the Christians.
NOTA BENE
-"Antiquities of the Jews" is an account of Jewish history from its early beginnings to the revolt against Rome in AD 66, written in Greek in about AD 93 by Flavius Josephus, a general in the Jewish army who defected to Rome.
-"The Annals" are Tacitus' brilliant account of Roman imperial history from the death of Augustus (14 AD) to the death of Nero (68AD).
-"Antiquities of the Jews" is an account of Jewish history from its early beginnings to the revolt against Rome in AD 66, written in Greek in about AD 93 by Flavius Josephus, a general in the Jewish army who defected to Rome.
-"The Annals" are Tacitus' brilliant account of Roman imperial history from the death of Augustus (14 AD) to the death of Nero (68AD).
There are many websites that bring this information in a very understandable format… please take a minute to do your own research if there are doubts… it points to accounts given by Roman historians. There is an embedded link called ‘Jesus, His Identity’ that is an important continuation of the discussion.
Seek the truth is the message here… do not believe something just because someone tells you to. This young man was taking excerpts from the Bible when it suited his argument and condemning our faith and belief in Jesus Christ. When quoting the scriptures that he did not want to hear, he dismissed it. He had no rebuttal except an excerpt from scriptures where Christ told his disciples not to reveal to no one he was the Christ. .. Matthew 16:24
All I know is that the Lord was filling my heart and my mouth with the words I needed to support me through this discussion. He was present in me and there was a time I would have doubted my ability to have this kind of lively discussion.
We were in the mosque for about an hour and while we waited for the bus to arrive, Beau, Hanne and I discussed what had just happened. We all agreed our meeting and then sudden decision to get off the bus and the discussion in the mosque were all a chain of events set in motion by our Lord. A divine intervention that sends chills even now when I think of it. We had been predestined to meet on that bus and make the journey together. I was blessed in so many ways that day.
We parted ways when they got off at the Twin Towers, but planned to have dinner the next night. Hanne and Beau are heading up to a Malaysian coastal city for a few days, but they will be in Shanghai the first week of May. I look forward to their coming to Shanghai.
Totally exhausted and ready to relax… I headed to the hotel to wait for Michael to complete his day.
When he finally wandered in, we headed to the Pavilion and the vast array of food awaiting us in the basement of the mall. We chose a curry dish from one of the hawker stalls… it was delish. After a long day and a full tummy we made the short walk back to hotel and called it a great day!!!
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